Is it normal to have full conversations?

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by journeyintoinsanity on Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:10 am

Moon Rouge wrote:
journeyintoinsanity wrote:
I haven't seen much of Thor recently. I think Thor is busy with Wild Hunt or something,
Thor scared the shit out of me, the first time ever encounter with Him, and Loki confirmed it was Thor. I had horrible dream from Wednesday to Thursday I'm still sorting out.
Thor scared you? Sad He's kind of a big teddy bear to me. Not all that dissimilar to the Marvel version of him. Not exactly the same, no, but close. I troll Him with my comic book Thor shirt on Thursdays. :;
):
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by ToriKitt on Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:45 am

It's interesting to me, as I've also been scared by gods others are not afraid of, how different everyone's experiences can be, based on where they're coming from, who they already work with, and where they want to go from there, when meeting someone new. I'm not sure how I'd feel about meeting Thor at this point in my life, which is likely why I haven't.

I'm about to word vomit, so sorry. This is a journal entry I just did about some of my thoughts derived from this post and y'alls input. It's very long. Sorry again.

------------------------------

Journaling ยป 11.14.2015 - Equa

Today is hard. There are hard questions.


I read Beth Wondanis's article "
My Odin and Other People's Odins."
I agree outright with the concept that there's different facets to gods that individuals interact with, and that this is a large part of why UPGs can be so different.


What I wonder is, Beth talks about the different "
faces"
being individuals with their own personal traits too, who are more or less individual Odins etc. for people. But she also says they all have the same core personality etc. of Odin and the other gods, so that's why the well-known SPG / lore is accurate universally. My thought is, if this is true, are they, in her model, really separate people? If they're not the "
real Odin"
or other god, how can they still have the same familial history etc., and how come they don't like certain offerings where others do? Wouldn't that be part of the core personality?


I don't like that aspect of the explanation. I personally tend to think more of the gods as having different pieces of themselves that they project outward from one core being, that are them, the "
real them,"
but that we don't see all at once. We only see the core parts that are universally accepted, in addition to the more personalized parts that they show us, and that these facets might be individualized based on what they know we need. I don't know.


It's confusing and frustrating for me. because I believe that gods can bilocate etc., giving attention and taking attention from more than one follower at the same exact time. But clashing UPG confuses me still. I thought I had a handle on it. Now I'm not sure. In the end I'm not sure how much it matters, except...


We know spirits and gods can impersonate one another, and that we can never 100% know for sure the god we're interacting with is who they say they are. How can I ever truly know that my Loki is Loki, and not some being capable of influence, image insertion, influencing divination, and simply letting me use the name Loki because it suits. Does it even matter if that were true? To me, yes. Even if the individual can do all the same things and acts how I would expect from Loki, if it's a pretender, that still matters. That's not who I wanted a relationship with. If this being were not Loki, but still reached out to me wanting me to work with them, they should have been up front about who they were, not used a name they thought I would respond to.


Now, that said, I do believe it is really Loki. I'm just wrestling with the idea of if there's ONE Loki, many Lokis, many "
Lokis,"
or many pieces of Loki. To me it does seem to matter, though not as seriously as the above worry. I just want to understand what ways mortals can work with the immortal, and resolve my brain's contradiction alerts. ^^;


--------------------------------

After that gigantic word vomit, I just want to say thanks again for everyone who's given input so far, it's very helpful. Today's been a weird morning and my brain's not feeling any happier about the metaphysical quandaries, lol. I find it kind of ironic, on a side note, that this is such a hard thing for me, being part of a DID system with alters who often pretend to be me, the host, to the outside world, to avoid complication. >
>
;

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Lokakisa on Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:10 pm

My friend, we are so alike! Even with long rambly posts. ;
p
I too grew up Christian, with the same thoughts you're having, and I also have much curiosity and worry, as well as suffering from anxiety.

I don't agree with the "
many Lokis"
theory either, just one Loki and many faces. (and yet, not really all that dissimilar)
I get a bit of Marvel Loki and Rumpelstiltskin (from "
Once Upon a Time"
), without the villainy of course, with perhaps a bit of Howl from the anime movie "
Howl's Moving Castle."
And now that I have discovered the delightful anime "
Kamigami no Asobi,"
there's a bit of that Loki too. ;
p

I had never thought of Him being busy or not everywhere at once, until I read different people saying well He's not omnipotent like the Christian God and He does have tasks to do and may not be around all the time, etc. I don't experience it either way, but I just don't expect Him to always be around.
With Him or any god/spirit, I make a point to address Them first before speaking/thinking/praying in the hopes that I get Their attention. I don't think They're monitoring our lives and thoughts 24/7, but They may have our ancestors and/or guardian spirits checking in on us ... and maybe They can or do leave a piece of Themselves with us, particularly if we have bought special jewelry items or consecrated something on the altar for Them.

There are many negative things said about Loki, like there are about certain other gods too (Set, Hades, etc.) and it may not be enjoyable to read but it's good to have a well-rounded view of people's understandings. There is no light without dark and we do need to take the good with the bad, and know that Loki is a perfectly imperfect god who has made mistakes and Who has the potential for destruction. On the other hand, He is extremely compassionate and generous and wont turn away anyone who wants to work with Him. He knows suffering, He knows how it feels to be an outcast, to never quite fit in, He knows what it's like to be both male and female, to be heterosexual and homosexual, to be both playful and serious, to be both witty and wise, how to shift into different roles, when to listen and when to talk, and what it means to tell a lie. The most important thing is to be honest with Him and honest with yourself.

When I first approached Him, I told Him my worries and doubts and fears. I expressed a sincere desire to get to know Him beyond fictional characters and lore. Sometimes I cry and whine and get impatient and have doubts and frustrations, but overall it's important to be patient and discover where your strengths lie and find ways that you are connecting without even knowing it.

I think I have felt Him poke me one time, I think I have felt Him hover about, I think I have had short responses said to me in my mind, I think I have felt Him touch my hand and smelled Him nearby. These moments are fleeting and don't occur often. After a year of working with Him I have finally had Him appear in a dream. You know what's funny? I read somewhere that you shouldn't say "
I think"
because it continues to fuel doubts in your mind. I just tend to write that way though because I am still trying to get comfortable with expressing UPG and not sounding like a better-than-thou type.
I am a newb to divination, I have a couple pendulums and several tarot and oracle decks. One deck is specifically dedicated to Him. Pendulums annoy me for not being clear and giving contradictory responses. Oh and I try to study runes too.
It's good to keep a journal of experiences and contacts with Him, although it seems like you already do that. But I mean like recording questions and responses and your tarot/rune spreads used and stuff.
Try to trust your gut and be open to any impressions, inspirations, songs or signs that pop up, etc. I trust that He guides my purchases of certain things, the preparation/choice of food and drink for sharing, creative impulses, choice of incense, and on and on.

I think it's okay to be scared and wary and formal at first when meeting Someone new, it shows respect and awe. But don't stop moving forward in your learning and exploration, and be open and hospitable to Them.

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Moon Rouge on Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:05 pm

journeyintoinsanity wrote:
Thor scared you? Sad He's kind of a big teddy bear to me. Not all that dissimilar to the Marvel version of him. Not exactly the same, no, but close. I troll Him with my comic book Thor shirt on Thursdays. :;
):
I may get to it at a bit later, I'm still trying to get to bottom of it. Thor threw a full scale thunderstorm in my direction, He is not subtle as a messenger!

Too many Lokis:
My personal doxa is, there is only one Loki, (or Odin, etc.). It doesn't mean each of us get full picture all features view. He chooses what He shows, and when, and to whom, and how much, and that is why some UPGs are alike, close, or differ.
I believe the Loki I know is different from the Loki you (fill the name, any mane) may know, but yet it is the one and only Loki out there for both and many of us.

I have some serious issues about Beth's UPGs.
I'm all fine with descendants, shards and soul gifted version of the gods, as long someone doesn't say he/she/they is the god itself, that rises the red flag for me.
When Beth says she is the sacred queen, it is all fine, the descendant of Cleopatra is fine too. Her poem I'm She telling us Beth is truly Gunnold is nice and OK. When Beth said she is sister of Loki I got big question mark over all. Why?
Gunnold is daughter of Suttung, so lets admit the lore is right, then the common parent between Loki and Gunnold would be the mother, Laufey.
If Gunnold is Loki's sister, then why on earth when Odin wants the mead He must go to the place through the hole as a snake, while He could walk through front door with Gunnold's brother Loki........
Or is all lore wrong?
Well stuff like this makes me then doubt all what person says.
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Lokakisa on Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:16 pm

My first exposure to the shard theory has left a bad taste in my mouth, so I don't know what I think of it.
At one time, I started to get the inclination that I was a shard of ... something ... but I've since lost that feeling, thanks to the goddamn medications I'm on. I fear I am going to turn into the narcoleptic lady in "
Deuce Bigalow."
lol

As for Freyr, maybe He is less active this time of year? Or more a behind-the-scenes active. Depending on your UPG/belief, He is the Harvest Lord Who is sacrificed at Lammas/Freyfaxi ... a story that has parallels to other cultures and we've probably all heard the Wiccan version. He could be resting ... or maybe He is busy like Loki with Yule prep? Dunno if He gets involved in the Wild Hunt.

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by journeyintoinsanity on Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:56 pm

The way I see it is that maybe our own versions of Them have Their own stories, which may or may not coincide with lore or other people's upg. I don't think the written lore is 100% accurate or set in stone, so I take it with a grain of salt. It's all so headachey, isn't it?
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by ToriKitt on Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:11 pm

I agree about being apprehensive of some of Beth's writing, but that's another post on it's own, maybe. lol! I checked out that article since it was so relevant to my particular questions, and while it's helped me in looking at how others think it works, I'm not sure it sits right with me. I really think there's only one of each God, and that they show us different aspects of themselves. It's the only thing that feels right to me, and matches with what little input I've gotten from non-mortals.

Kisa, thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. You worded a LOT of things really beautifully that I wouldn't have been sure how to put. It does sound like we have an awful lot in common, lol. I definitely believe Loki has influenced my choices in incense, altar decorations, gifts, offerings, etc., and song choices too, if only a time or two. I don't think he's with me all day every day, but I think he's very often close. I also agree whole-heartedly that it's important to listen to the good and bad that is available about the Gods, and really think over it all, as a whole, and not pick and choose parts based only on what we like or don't want to hear. (Coincidentally, I very early on felt drawn to Hades as another potential deity to work with, but he didn't seem interested for the time being. I am very much drawn to those who know what it's like be rejected, hated, and cursed).

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Darkamber on Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:34 am

I don't subscribe to the many gods answering for one god theory either. I don't believe we each get our own entity who answers to Loki.

My personal theory is that deities exists on a plane higher than the astral plane, that this is where their core is. We can't access this higher plane, and to be in the presence of the full force of a deity would be too much for our astral selves.
I believe that the gods send down tendrils of their core to interact with us on the astral or mortal planes. That is why we can get different aspects of a deity, but at the core it is the same deity. I think this is how a deity multilocates, and can interact with many of us at the same time.
I think the core of Loki knows what all His facet-tendrils are doing, but each facet-tendril might not know what all the other facet-tendrils are doing. They need to get that info downloaded from the core.
I think the gods can interact with each other on this higher plane, but perhaps they send a thick tendril of themselves to interact with each other in a more linear timeline on the astral. This way they can experience an existence closer to that of mortals.
So, when Loki was bound, was it just the big part of Him that was on the astral plane that was bound? And that somehow this part of Him was prevented from interacting with anyone but Sigyn on the astral? It would still have been traumatising for the core, since it experiences what the different part of Loki experiences.
Considering how many of us have had past life dealings with Loki, parts of Him must have been free to interact with us, even though a part of Him was bound.
I think perhaps this is one of the Mysteries, which we can't expect to fully understand. It breaks my brain thinking about it too much!

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Corannhena on Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:55 am

The way I understand multilocation, i.e. the way Loki "
explained"
it to me, is that he can split himself up into multiples of himself, but that it takes energy to do so and there's a limit to how many of himself he can split into at one time. I did ask him if each "
version"
of himself knew what the others were doing and he was basically like 'kind of'.


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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by ToriKitt on Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:56 am

That actually makes a lot of sense, Amber, and fits very nicely with where my brain tries to go when I think about it before it gives up and cries. ;
P Thanks for sharing, it's nice to see some of the same things worded that I'm not so good at. Also, irrelevantly, the word tendrils always makes me think of jungle vines. lol

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by journeyintoinsanity on Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:48 am

I'm with Darkamber and Corannhena on their ideas. That's how I view it as well. But I also feel like They pop in and out, that most times, They don't stay with us 24/7. I look at it as my home is Their home, too, and They come and go like anyone would from home. They pop in, see what we're up to, and interact if able. Or if we're busy, They check back later. But if we say or think Their name, They hear it and come to us, like a family member calling our name from another room in the house.
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Just.Christine on Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:40 pm

Corannhena wrote:I can, occasionally, "
hear"
him, although I tend to call it him "
putting things in my head"
.

This is the best description that fits howOdin and I communicate. It feels almost exactly how it feels when a fictional character feels rummaging around in my head. I questiined whether it really was Odin at first, but I had far too many coincidences fall into place in relation to our 'share mind' convos to dismiss as pure fiction. Plus, my fiction character usually had short life span, fadi g away after!the story or role play was over.

And Odin has been around in disguise for almost 15 years.

I still have occasional doubts and question myself regularly but thats not necessarily a bad thing.

And then there's prayer: Domyou pray for things or answers, converse internally and then receive answers or the help you seekand were wondering?

I don't employ divination because Ive had some really negative experiences with it and dont trust it. Maybe someday.... Smile
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by journeyintoinsanity on Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:28 pm

I don't pray in the traditional sense. I talk to Them and express my thoughts or concerns, and ask for some help or guidance in the situation. I guess that's kinda prayer at a basic level. But it's more like a talk with family, or, that's what it feels like to me. I guess I just feel weird calling it prayer.
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by ToriKitt on Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:30 pm

journeyintoinsanity wrote:They pop in, see what we're up to, and interact if able. Or if we're busy, They check back later. But if we say or think Their name, They hear it and come to us, like a family member calling our name from another room in the house.

This matches up very well with my experience so far. Nice to see there's more than a few who experience it that way.

Chris (is that the right name for you?), I know that rummaging-around-the-head feeling, LOL. Both from writing deeply intense fictional stories and having muses for them, as well as my DID, in that sometimes I get alters talking to me from the back of my "
headspace,"
(sort of like back-seat drivers), and they''ll make snarky comments that I just sort of register, and it feels odd and sort of echoey. ._. That said, I can always tell the difference between internal ideas and thought-forms that are there to help me write, outside deities, entities, etc. speaking to me by putting thoughts into my head, and alters having their own separate minds and thoughts that I happen to overhear sometimes due to sharing one skull. Razz

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Just.Christine on Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:38 pm

Corannhena wrote:The way I understand multilocation, i.e. the way Loki "
explained"
it to me, is that he can split himself up into multiples of himself, but that it takes energy to do so and there's a limit to how many of himself he can split into at one time. I did ask him if each "
version"
of himself knew what the others were doing and he was basically like 'kind of'.

I never asked Odin specifics, but I tend to relate to how Amber describes it. I see All-Father as something like the totality of his being. Like a mosaic has many colors and textures, each person gets a color and texture of deity that may resemble other's, but have it's own distinctions. However, no matter how mamy colors and twxtures a mosaic has, the whole thing is made of essentially the same materials underneath it all.

I think the corporate drone model doesn't work because it's exclusive rather than inclusive. You end up with a few individuals who think they have the original and everyone else has a representative. I just see it as a way highly jealous and possessive people can make sharing tolerable. I found it absurd, ridiculous and transparent in its effort to have a deity to one's self in one's own mind.

Pffffft! Rolling Eyes
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Just.Christine on Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:46 pm

journeyintoinsanity wrote:I don't pray in the traditional sense. I talk to Them and express my thoughts or concerns, and ask for some help or guidance in the situation. I guess that's kinda prayer at a basic level. But it's more like a talk with family, or, that's what it feels like to me. I guess I just feel weird calling it prayer.

It felt strange to me at first. Like so many deluded Christians, I assumed Christianity had all the markets cornered in regards to spiritual experience and truth. I was surprised to learn mthat Wiccan's believed in prayer. I just made the shift feom praying to God the Father to offering prayer to my Wight, Odin, and Loki.

For now. My prayers are informal though
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Corannhena on Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:10 pm

Odin.Chris wrote:
Corannhena wrote:The way I understand multilocation, i.e. the way Loki "
explained"
it to me, is that he can split himself up into multiples of himself, but that it takes energy to do so and there's a limit to how many of himself he can split into at one time. I did ask him if each "
version"
of himself knew what the others were doing and he was basically like 'kind of'.

I never asked Odin specifics, but I tend to relate to how Amber describes it. I see All-Father as something like the totality of his being. Like a mosaic has many colors and textures, each person gets a color and texture of deity that may resemble other's, but have it's own distinctions. However, no matter how mamy colors and twxtures a mosaic has, the whole thing is made of essentially the same materials underneath it all.

I think the corporate drone model doesn't work because it's exclusive rather than inclusive. You end up with a few individuals who think they have the original and everyone else has a representative. I just see it as a way highly jealous and possessive people can make sharing tolerable. I found it absurd, ridiculous and transparent in its effort to have a deity to one's self in one's own mind.

Pffffft! Rolling Eyes

... ? does this mean you think Loki was lying to me? I don't think he was, and I never said that's how all gods multilocate, just that Loki explained that that's how he does. And even after learning that, I've never thought that I have the "
real"
Loki and everyone else has an imposter.
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by journeyintoinsanity on Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:49 pm

I don't think that's what she meant, Corannhena. I think she was talking about Sebastian's explanation of the infernals and the office.
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Moon Rouge on Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:46 pm

Corannhena wrote:
... ? does this mean you think Loki was lying to me? I don't think he was, and I never said that's how all gods multilocate, just that Loki explained that that's how he does. And even after learning that, I've never thought that I have the "
real"
Loki and everyone else has an imposter.

I as Journey said, I also think you greatly misunderstood.

Besides I think nobody here would tell Loki was lying to you, or anybody else. When UPG or doxa differs it doesn't mean s/Somebody lies.
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Darkamber on Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:22 pm

Odin.Chris wrote:I think the corporate drone model doesn't work because it's exclusive rather than inclusive. You end up with a few individuals who think they have the original and everyone else has a representative. I just see it as a way highly jealous and possessive people can make sharing tolerable. I found it absurd, ridiculous and transparent in its effort to have a deity to one's self in one's own mind.

Hear, hear! I couldn't agree more!

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Corannhena on Mon Nov 16, 2015 12:10 am

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. It's just that since she did quote me, I'd thought she was talking about my splitting-up theory. Plus the phrase "
corporate drone model"
made me bristle a little bit.
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Just.Christine on Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:10 am

Corannhena wrote:Ah, I'd forgotten about that. It's just that since she did quote me, I'd thought she was talking about my splitting-up theory. Plus the phrase "
corporate drone model"
made me bristle a little bit.

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I was referring to Seb and Beths model. Both of them believed they had the "
real"
Odin or "
D"
(Who I think is Asmodie. ). She calls Asmodai Dai. And Asmodie is her main patron, I think.

And Beth said she was pretty sure she had the "
actual"
Odin. And as a friend joked to me later, to paraphrase, that we were lucky to have the janitor of the corporation. Laughing

The splitting theory is way better.

The corporate model Seb and Beth espoused was just to insulting and condescending. And not by accident in my opinion. Some who commented on Beth's post later came to say it had made them feel like something the cat dragged in and that they at first thought they must be the only one's who felt that way. Those posts were ill-willed and snobby.
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by ToriKitt on Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:54 am

I'd have to agree, some of it did feel that way. The one post of Beth's I did read didn't get into who had the "
real Odin"
or not, but the feeling was definitely there in undertones, and outright for her model to work, SOMEONE would have to, so... meh.

But yeah, I don't think there's much similar between her model and what it sounds like everyone here feels. That's one thing I'm relieved to see since joining up here, is that we can all have varying ideas on how stuff works, but none of it pushes anyone else out (that I've seen). Yay for having non-excluding theories or The-Only-Real-One snootiness. Razz

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by Lokakisa on Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:08 am

Agreed, the theory was ridic and snobby.

Seb posted that "
D"
is D'gras Yanlin, not Asmodai. Asmodai is his patron. D'gras is his spirit-husband. Yanlin is also one his "
characters"
from his Eshnahai fiction and is the lover to the Vanaheim Queen, AKA Seb's "
higher self"
or shard or whatever the hell it is.
Supposedly D'gras used to hold the title of Lucifuge Rofocale. Maybe things work different in the Infernal realm and that whole "
could be anybody answering the phone"
holds true ... but eh. It holds no water at all for any other pantheon. I don't think the Greeks or Egyptians or Norse or whoever thought there was multiple beings behind the name Zeus or Aset or Loki.
Overall I'm just glad I don't read their blogs anymore. Beth's was more tolerable but could be condescending at times. I also find the notion of queenship as utter nonsense.
I hate to say it, but Seb's sounds like his own personal fantasy world.
They both had a tendency of coming off as better-than-thou.

The cynical side of me sees these kind of proclamations as the delusions of people who want to make themselves look good for whatever reason. They've had it rough, been picked on, can't hold down a job, suffer from illness, have been hurt and/or heartbroken, etc. etc. then suddenly they come out of the gate with "
I'm a queen!"
"
I'm the shard of a goddess!"
"
I'm special and you're not!"
It's a terrible way to lift yourself up, instead of humble devotion, like say, um is it Magick from Scratch? The one who posts about Hermes and Hellenic things.

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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

Post by journeyintoinsanity on Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:58 am

I enjoy Magick From Scratch. Smile Especially the bits she gets from Hermes.

I honestly don't know how I feel about the whole queenship thing. I mean, I'm the "
queen"
of my home, but that's about it. The Queen that nobody listens to! XD But sacred queenship? I don't know. Maybe it's because I don't feel drawn to that path. I feel more of the shamaness/healer type thing coming to the forefront. Not diviner, but healer. Helping people to find their way and feel better. Smile

As far as shards and incarnations go, I do feel that's a Thing. Especially for People like Loki, Fen, and Sigyn who have been through some seriously major trauma. Humans can shard as well from trauma. I would assume the same for the Gods and Goddesses. I have a theory, based on something I read a long time ago, that the deity shards end up with humans as part of the healing process. And sometimes They'll incarnate a portion of Themselves into a human body to either heal a trauma or experience what we experience Down Here. Incarnating like that helps Them understand and relate to us better. I wish I could remember where I read this because it was interesting.
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Re: Is it normal to have full conversations?

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